Creation Narratives across cultures are a passion of mine and something I have worked with extensively. I just wanted to bring up the topic of looking at the first and second creation narratives in the Bible (Genesis 1:1-2:3, and the rest of Genesis 2 and 3), and compare it to the creation in the Ainulindalë and the Valaquenta or in Lewis’s The Magician’s Nephew. Other stories include the Ra creation story from Egypt, Enuma Elish and other older mesopotamian stories like Atrahasis and various creation stories involving the god Enki (Enki and Ninhursag, Enki and the World Order). There are various Greek Mythological traditions of creation that I am aware of and there are probably various Germanic and/or Norse accounts. I don’t have time to do any extensive analysis but I think starting with the beginning is probably a good place to start. I’ll get some analysis up eventually. Feel free to give your take!

Have you read the works of Joseph Campbell? He discusses the Monomyth (This is the theory that all myths are built upon the same foundation), and the Heroic Cycle.

It is amazing how closely Tolkien’s work parallels these theories of Mythic Creation, and it is a pity that Joe was so dismissive of Middle-earth when he composed The Masks of God (especially Vol 4: Creative Mythology). Campbell did take up the myth and heros of Star Wars (another Romantic Epic, very similar to the cosmology of Middle-earth).

And there are all manner of reasons why the Flood Myth is so prevalent.

But… Guess which cultures have no Flood Myth?

Siberian Cultures and Eskimos, and the sea-dwelling Polynesians. These are the most prominent cultures that have no equivalent Flood Myth, but there are others.

And Atalantë/Númenóre/Akallabeth are all very much Archtypical myths. The stories of the “Great civilizations of the past” who all fell to their own hubris are another archetype that is well represented… Not to mention that these stories are a combination of the Atlantean myth and the Flood Myth.

There is a phylogeny of myth.

While it’s cool and fun to draw up parallels and archetypes in various myths, all myths are something of their own. Matching archetypes do not make two stories the same. I’ve read Joseph Campbell, he’s pretty much the most well-known comparative mythologist, and rightfully so. I love his work, and it has value to this study which cannot be ignored. But, I do not believe in the word “monomyth.” Tales and myths have striking similarities, but no, they are not the same story. They may even be complimentary to a model like Joseph Campbell’s, but no, they are not the same story.

The Creation stories of the Bible in the Old Testament or the Torah are myths meant for earth, and Tolkien’s Creation story is meant for Ea, his own sub-creation. The Creation story in the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta does not have two contradictory accounts. The two Creation stories in Genesis are a discussion all its own; so many theological essays comb through this, and many Christians tend to argue that the two stories are complimentary to one another. But those who read the same text are not in agreement as to the true meaning of the stories. Branches of Christianity tend to be in serious disagreement with biblical interpretations, not to mention Jewish interpretations. The argument for the validity of each interpretation sometimes takes precedence over the myth itself. The two Creation stories in Genesis are perhaps many many myths. So, this myth is just beyond me. I have not the knowledge to thoroughly address this question. But I have one, is Creation of the world the foundation for this myth, or is it what the myth “means?”

Tolkien’s myth, even if it were subject to debate, which of course someone could find something, is not a matter of actual belief. I’ve never seen anyone actually believe the Ainur or Melkor or any of the lore of The Silmarillion exists in the reality we live in. If any of y’all have encountered this, correct me, and shock and disturb me (may Eru help them). I don’t think this is a the-Force-is-real kind of thing. There is less at stake here, because (hopefully) there is no true worship. Yet, of course, this does not make this story any less of a myth. It has the same value of a myth meant for earth, for people read and tell all stories, because stories speak to them.

Of course, I have delineated something already known, for these comparisons are obvious, and in many ways can be argued to be insignificant, but I’m not writing a paper here. But, comparisons between these two are both extremely limited and extremely vast. As I discussed above, the Old Testament/Torah Creation myth(s) are the same text, only way too many myths. It is like being in a room full of butterflies, each of a different color, and trying to catch every single one at once. I see this as a limitation, at least for myself. For stories are to be read, and readers are at least just as significant as the stories themselves; they bring them to life.

Now, I can dig up all the comparisons like Ainur/Valar-are-angels-but-not-quite-and-here’s-why, or Eru-and-Yahweh-are-similar-gods-in-these-ways, or men-are-the-Children-of-God-and-elves-are-the-Children-of-Illuvatar, or,–my least favorite–how Tolkien’s own Christian beliefs seeped into his myth. But, I just frankly don’t want to.

This topic is quite broad, and one can write a dissertation on this question. It is an undertaking indeed, but I hoped I was able to provide a smidgen of insight.

“Not believing in the Monomyth” is not really an issue, when that belief flies in the face of established evidence.

There is a lot of disagreement among many scholars over this issue, and mostly among Christian Scholars, who seem to object to the fact that any story (true or not) have elements of myth in it, and that any story which purports to describe the intervention of supernatural beings is a myth

And the comparison of the Valar to Angels is not the point of comparison in the Monomyth.

The point of comparison of the monomyth would be the behavior of the various characters as compared to archetypical behavior of the various mythic character archetypes.

Lalebanchi is certainly onto something in looking at Tolkien’s creation as a means to redeem paganism. He manages to show how elemental forces could be both personified, and be agents of a universal and singular creator.

@dreamingfifi,

Leaf by Niggle is Tolkien’s only work of allegory, you are certainly correct. However, I don’t think something need to be allegory to get at truth, especially deep transcendent truth which can be approximated without the portrayal of any facts. I also think Tolkien’s theology and understanding of the Bible were both complicated and nuanced. He was certainly not a Biblical literalist, and I think he would have been horrified by the idea. He was well read in theology and the hermeneutics of Christian Biblical exegesis and interpretation, even if it wasn’t precisely his field. I’m certain he read at least enough of the works of St. Augustine to understand the hermeneutic of love by which the whole Bible need be understood. If God is doing something that’s not love, well then, we need to figure out the meaning of the story, but it’s certainly not true in any sort of literal level. Tolkien believed he was approximating the truth of all reality even if what he was communicating was a non-allegorical fiction.

My proof that Tolkien definitely thought his works approximated truth comes from his response to the letter of a Catholic Priest, which I remember but am unfortunately unable to cite as I do not have his collected letters with me. The priest expressing concern with the whole death being the “gift of men” when in Christian tradition, except in some more obscure spiritualities, most prominently Franciscan, death is punishment or like a cosmic evil force which goes hand in hand with sin. Tolkien did not say it’s just a story, let it go. He said something like “of course death is a punishment, but what punishment from God is not ultimately a gift for our benefit? Everything God gives for us is out of love. God can be thought of like a loving parent, and loving parents punish, and the punishments are given out of love, not wrath.

I just joined the network today so this is all new to me. Anyway, I’m not seeing any Native American myths here, other than the Eskimos you mentioned. I know that the Cherokees have a lovely creation myth but I can’t remember it. I’m certain other indigenous North American tribes do as well.

I meant this group, not necessarily the site as a whole. You mentioned Egypt, Greece, and others – even Joseph Campbell.